"Charlotte, once again demonstrating its complete lack of barbecue relevance . . . "
"Fruit in barbecue sauces? It's official, we now live in South New York . . ."
"Slather sweet sauce over generic meat and call it barbecue . . . "
"Think of an out-of-towner coming across this story and thinking that this is what Carolina barbecue is all about . . ."
That last comment was the one that really made me start shaking my head. Seriously? It's actually a betrayal of our state to acknowledge the existence of anything beyond whole pig with vinegar mop?
Are we merely the sum of our Lexington and Eastern Carolina pigs parts?
I'm usually accustomed to the outbreak of hyperbole and hostility that passes for barbecue dialogue around here. I've written in newspapers, magazines, books and online for a couple of decades now and I know that simply typing (even thinking or saying) any word that involves the letters "B," "B" and "Q" is going to be trouble.
But I was still a little taken aback by the comments that broke out when we announced the winners of our barbecue sauce contest Wednesday. After all. we had been pretty clear that the contest was for homemade-sauce recipes. At the beginning and the end of the contest, we were specific that these sauces were for backyard cookouts, not for digging large pits and cooking whole pigs or shoulders.
Interestingly, despite the debate, most of the 30 or 40 recipes entered had some kind of sweet elements, often a jam, sugar or molasses. There were all kinds of styles of barbecue sauces, which is part of what made the contest fun. These are the things that people make when they're cooking at home, and it was pretty clear from the recipes that people make a huge variety of things.
Certainly, barbecue and grilling are not the same thing. I wrote a column on that subject very recently. But it's also true that when we are grilling, we do all kinds of things.
I love the tradition and the history that's represented by the classic barbecue restaurant of North and South Carolina. I've visited well over 30 of them.
But is it true that if we stand on Carolina soil, we're not allowed to rake anything else over the coals?
Sorry. As a cook and a writer and an avid backyard griller, I just can't agree with that.
Sorry but, Carolina "BBQ" is nasty.
ReplyDeleteAnd . . . here we go again. Thanks for sharing, Anonymous.
ReplyDeleteAhhh, we love to argue the differences, but we all love the pig. Sort of like the Duke-UNC fight. Whether you move here or are born here, you must take a side at some point. I love um all, as long as they are cooked over wood. See! :)
ReplyDeleteOld Hickory House, North Tryon. Period.
ReplyDeleteIf you're going to talk barbecue in NC you're going to start an argument. That's nothing new and won't ever change. In NC real barbecue means Eastern and Lex styles and that's pretty much it. If you don't understand that you're either not from here or pretty thick.
ReplyDeleteI would suggest changing your award form best barbecue sauce to best grilling sauce to avoid the wrath of purists.
From Chicago- best BBQ I've tried since I've been here- is Hickory House...... baked porked and only pork shoulder is not BBQ--- Gates in KC, Lem's BBQ in Chi-town,
ReplyDeleteNailed it with the Old Hickory House comment. Legit.
ReplyDeleteChrist on a bun, Ms. Purvis - cant you find something else to write about other than BBQ Wars, Sweet tea, and Fried Chicken?How many dozens of articles and blog entries of yours concern BBQ, one out of every three? What's next? A 'Best Nanner Puddin' in NC tournament Bracket?
ReplyDeleteWhat I find funny is that, for the most part, the people who argue about BBQ eat it and don't actually cook it. My husband and I are on a MIM team and non competitors at the event love to TRY to argue 'que with me (being from NC). They can't because I love all great BBQ and yes I think it must be smoked with wood. The debate of sliced, pulled, chopped or minced-that really depends on the cut of the pig, personal preference, etc. Sauces, all types can be good, if you have an open mind. The bottom line is no sauce can save bad BBQ. The 'que must hold it's own without any sauce. Sauce should enhance not be the main event.
ReplyDeleteMs. Purvis,
ReplyDeleteYou posted a story on the sauces. You do understand this is an open forum for comments. The people who post have the right to disagree or to post whatever nonsense they desire.
Grow a thicker skin or get out of the newspaper business.
Kathleen, I too was surprised by the mean-spirited commentary. I thought, how exciting for these folks to have won/placed in a competition, how exciting perhaps, for their kids to read the article. How disappointing it must have been for them to read the negative comments. And Mr. Whitman, this isn't an open forum, if you want an "open" forum, start your own newspaper & your own blog. The CO has the rights over content.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Whitman. Actually it is an open forum Kim, that's why anyone is free to leave a comment with their own opinions. If it's not an open forum then what would you call it?
ReplyDeleteThis is a blog, not an open forum, the blog administrator has the right to remove comments or not as she sees fit.
ReplyDeleteThe original article is also not an "Open forum" - the Charlotte Observer has the right to delete comments, if you'd read their policy, you'd know that:
ReplyDelete"We do not monitor each and every posting, but we reserve the right to block or delete comments that violate these rules."
It's 100% an open forum. That is how I posted, Kim posted, and anyone else can post. Gees, did you go to school in Mississippi Kim?
ReplyDeleteGreat article. Keep up the good work Kathleen! I always look forward to your posts and articles.
ReplyDeleteForget the BBQ sauce debate. Folks can't even agree if this is a blog or a forum and whether it is opn or closed.
ReplyDeleteYou clowns are too funny!
Good BBQ in NC is everywhere. Personally, I don't like Lexington. It's sweet, has too much tomato. I prefer vinegar based, Eastern NC style. I've had good BBQ all over NC. I've had good mustard based in SC, I've had great brisket in Dallas, TX. For me, however, vinegar-based BBQ in Eastern NC reigns. And to drill down further, BBQ Hut in Fayetteville is the best.
ReplyDeleteBest barbeque is Smithville BBQ---only the location in Warsaw, NC.
ReplyDeleteOh, Kathleen, I, too was taken aback by all the negative comments to the original article. Whenever I get home to NC I try to get some real Lexington barbeque. But that doesn't mean that some other sauce slathered on a backyard grilled meat is necessarily bad. I have learned that people - freed from the restraints of face-to face conversation - tend to be pretty nasty in their internet comments. It's a sad reflection on the character of some people, but what can you do?
ReplyDeleteAny BBQ that is good.... is good BBQ.
ReplyDeleteWhat that means is NC, SC, Texas, Memphis, Kansas City, etc.
If you want to be narrow minded and limit yourself, go right ahead.
I've had great BBQ all over this country, all kinds.
I have my own smoker and everyone I do BBQ for loves mine, but even mine is just one of many thta makes up good BBQ.
Fine. But who has the best burger?
ReplyDeleteSince Ms. Purvis decided to quote me twice out of context, I'll repost my original comment that evidently inspired this particular blog post. It was neither mean-spirited, closed-minded or hurtful. It was, however, a valid criticism of Charlotte and the Observer's struggles with cultural identity, food and otherwise. For more context, I'm a 33 year-old Charlotte native who loves and cares for his home town, appreciates and cooks good food of all kinds -- and is continually disappointed to have to drive far away from Charlotte to get good barbecue when he comes home for Christmas from California:
ReplyDelete"There's nothing wrong with people having their own tastes and styles. But to come to a news site representing the largest city in the cradle of barbecue country and see this story shows a complete lack of cultural pride or awareness. You would never see a Chicago pizza pie contest in New York or have it splashed on the front page of the NY Times. Think of an out-of-towner coming across this story and thinking that this is what Carolina barbecue is all about. Charlotte has always had an identity crisis/insecurity, and its lack of touch with one of North Carolina's great traditions (smoked pork barbecue) is a prime example."
To add on, it's great to showcase foods other than NC barbecue and expose your readers to new things. But to pick an NC institution like barbecue and choose what amounts to sacrelige for local barbecue lovers as your winners shows a lack of touch and nuance with your audience. Maybe the Observer is showcasing great genuine NC barbecue and I haven't seen it. I would love to read something if you have a url.
I also painstakingly smoke my own ribs in a small charcoal Weber and am always happy to nosh on some good Texas and Memphis barbecue.
ReplyDeletethe comments the other day made me wonder if I'd missed this year's installation of the annual "'mater sammich" wars.
ReplyDeletethese bbq skirmishes are positively genteel when compared to what happens when someone suggests Roman Meal or Hellman's.
I like to sit on the fence when it comes to East/West, but I think we can all agree (even though I now live down here now) that mustard based sauce sucks.
ReplyDeleteTo the "haters" that said NC BBQ is "nasty" and that mustard based sauce "sucks"...we know that you are really just lovers of these like we are. Good strategy! Just tell the rest of the world how bad it is and we can keep more of it for ourselves!! Genius!!
ReplyDeleteAmen teaclown!!!
ReplyDeleteI'd bet $10,000 the supposed BBQ experts who criticize anything that isn't true "carolina" BBQ and claim there isn't any good BBQ in Charlotte, blah, blah blah, couldn't tell the difference between Old Hickory BBQ and Lexington BBQ.
ReplyDelete(yes, teaclown this includes you)
What goofiness. You're eating a dead pig, folks, and you're gonna argue about the best way to cook it and make it taste better?
ReplyDelete@RibsAreBetter... That's easy. Old Hickory BBQ is inedible.
ReplyDeleteKathleen, I enjoy your articles. Keep up the great work.
ReplyDeleteI've said it before and I'll say it again, "There's no such thing as bad BBQ...but there are levels of goodness."
ReplyDeleteWith that said, we must get the terms right: BBQ is slow cooked over wood coals and Grilled is just that. YES, one can slow cook a piece of meat on the grill, but is said grill is gas, that's not BBQ. At the same time, slow cooked in a pit or oven like the Hawaiians or Cajuns do for cochon de lait, is out of this world and definitely belong in the conversation.
As for sauces, they too have a place and shouldn't be chastised. Not everyone wants their meat as is. And fruits make a fantastic base for a sauce. But for crying out loud, to go to the lengths that people do around here with sauce and BBQ is terrible. Just shut up and enjoy.
Thanks, all, for the enthusiasm, input and interest. I found the original comments interesting and wanted to open a discussion about them, and I certainly did that. To several people who have asked: No, I'm not hurt or upset. I have a thick skin, and I love hearing people's opinions, whether I agree or not.
ReplyDeleteOn the question of whether the comments on stories and blogs are open forums, I think it falls in the middle. In general, newspapers like comments and encourage them as a way to involve readers. But we do monitor comments and we have a clearly stated policy on what's acceptable and what is not. As a reporter, for instance, if I see information that I know is factually wrong, I will add a comment to correct it.
Here on the blog, it's a little looser and I can set my own standards. I love dialogue and am always curious about what people think.
In general, I will remove a comment if it is slanderous and I will correct factual inaccuracy. I will remove a post for profanity, and I will remove a post if someone is being rude to another poster. To me, that last one is the same way I'd want you treated if you came to my home: Other guests may not like you, but they don't get to be rude to you.
On the other hand, being rude to me is generally OK with me. (Right, Arcola V. Tisdale? :D)
I don't mind passion when it comes to discussing barbecue, but I don't understand the meanness. It's not a zero-sum game. Different folks have different tastes. That's not going to erase 150 years of barbecue history in the state. It doesn't need defending. The food and those who cook it speak for themselves, in all its various assorted smoky manifestations.
ReplyDeleteAs for this sauce contest, I went back and read the article and some of the comments after coming across this blog entry. And I think maybe some folks had a misunderstanding about the purpose of the contest. I didn't see that it was about finding the best traditional sauce at all. Maybe folks confused this with the recent DNC associated contest where the idea WAS to find sauces representing the traditional Carolinas styles. This was a contest open to all, with the stipulation that the recipes themselves had to be submitted. That there is going to eliminate a significant cross-section of traditional sauces right off the bat. No serious pitmaster is going to give out their actual sauce recipe. So the contest was basically about backyard cookers, with a popularity element included with the open vote. Based on that, I'm not surprised that the winning sauces were on the sweet side of the scale. The general public skews to sweetness in sauces as evidenced by what's available on supermarket shelves. Sugar sells. That being said, it doesn't mean these sauces are illegitimate. They still combine elements of sweet, sour, and some heat. Those are universal elements in all manner of cuisines, including some styles of barbecue. I could certainly see using the winning sauces as a baste to finish ribs for those who like them "wet", or for chicken.
I guess I'm more into the whole food scene as a student, always reading and trying recipes to see what I can learn about flavors, and tweaking them to make them my on. As for barbecue, I've got a little bit of cred there. I came in 3rd place for pork in the Charlotte Shout Blews, Brews, & BBQ amateur division a while back. And came in 3rd place for ribs in a KCBS sanctioned event a few years ago, behind a team that had won a national contest in Vegas. That was another learning experience in its own right. For KCBS events, you are required to submit entries for chicken, pork, ribs, and brisket. Brisket!? I cooked many a slab of beef ahead of the contest and eventually came up with a recipe that yielded me a 5th place trophy. Not bad for a good ol' boy from Carolina.
Anyway, the bottom line is: grilling is good, barbecue is great. And if you find yourself getting uptight, you need to avail yourself of the natural mellowing agents of your favorite sauce, regardless of style.
RibsAreBetter, I'll give Old Hickory a try next time I'm in town. I've never been. Maybe it will solve my homecoming barbecue dilemma! Lately I've stopped at Allen & Son on a visit to the Triangle and brought a pound home with me, but would like to be able to go sit down and have fresh barbecue with sweet tea and hot hushpuppies.
ReplyDeleteteaclown, you will be VERY disappointed in Old Hickory BBQ if you have ever eaten at any BBQ restaurant anywhere.
ReplyDelete